There are games, and then there are games. Esoteric Ebb is certainly the latter and, in my opinion, one of the best titles released in recent years. We praised it to the hilt in our review back in early March, because it really does deserve the reception it got. But just as with games, there are also developers, and then we have people like Christoffer "Chris" Bodegård who manage the feat of delivering both games of insanely high quality (read our review of Esoteric Ebb here) and being so unbearably nice, knowledgeable and funny all at the same time.
Before Esoteric Ebb was released, there was quite a lot of nervousness and stress ahead of the launch. Bodegård didn't know, of course, that he had a massive hit on his hands, so we felt it was time to sit down and chat about the game following its reception.
"Hi Christoffer! First of all - how are things at the moment? Have you managed to secure any deals since the launch?"
Hey there again! Things have actually just started to calm down properly for the first time. There's about a month to go now until the Steam Summer Sale, and things will probably heat up again then. But right now? It's dead calm!
"And huge congratulations on the release of Esoteric Ebb. How have the last few months been for you emotionally?"
Thanks! It's actually been really nice. After version 1.2 was released, I felt the game was in good enough shape to start making some longer-term plans. Things like potential localisation, porting, and so on. All that takes time, so right now I'm mostly doing a lot of groundwork and enjoying the fact that the game is a success!
"When did you start to realise that the game was actually making a real impact?"
Four moments: the first was when I showed it to my sort-of mentor at the park. He's the sort of person who's very sparing with praise, so when he said, 'This is actually quite good,' I knew I was on the right track. The second time was when the PC Gamer article first came out, and I woke up to a dozen messages from people congratulating me. And the third time was when the demo made it into the top ten on Steam Next Fest on the last day. And finally, the fourth time was when I saw that the game had reached 'Overwhelmingly Positive' on Steam. It's absolutely mad that it's gone so well.
"Now that people have actually finished playing Esoteric Ebb - which reaction from players or the press has surprised you the most?"
I suppose what surprised me most was how many people were moved to tears. I myself felt very emotional when writing certain passages, but I've never written anything before that had such an effect. But I suppose that if you shed a tear whilst writing it, perhaps that somehow rubs off on the readers.
"Is it a bit unsettling too? That people become so emotionally attached to something you've sat alone writing for years?"
I suppose my overall aim in writing is simply to make the player feel something. So I feel it's been quite a success! I like to shock and surprise, sort of. And I think the best way to do that is to present a story that might seem superficial - like a colourful and comical D&D adventure - and then slowly persuade the player to care excessively about the world and its characters. So I'm really just happy that I've managed to make people feel something, for a brief moment.
"We have a new piece of cleric artwork by Westberg that you're welcome to give an exclusive reveal of." - Christoffer Bodegård
"You've been working on the game for a very long time. How much do you think both you and the project have changed along the way?"
I've actually got the hang of interactive writing! It took a few years. Politically, I've also changed and grown a lot, which was the whole point. I really wanted to use Ebb as a way of exploring my own ideological journey - so now I'm absolutely ready for the election this autumn!
"Do you perhaps feel that developing the game made you more humble about how people actually behave in politics? I mean, was Esoteric Ebb an eye-opener for you too?"
Yeah, I learnt a hell of a lot about people, that's for sure! I think I also became increasingly aware of just how much we're all driven by ideology. That is to say, the ideas and concepts we debate are always created and filtered through our material circumstances. And when circumstances change, it's bloody important to keep track of exactly how. Especially today, when circumstances seem to change every single week (or so it feels), our ideologies have to keep up.
Luckily, I wrote most of Ebb's text in 2025 (about 600k words), so everything is as relevant and 'up to date' as I possibly could make it. Then it'll be interesting to see how long all this stuff I'm writing about stays relevant.
"After so many years working on the same project - is it hard to even know who you are without the game anymore?"
Interestingly enough, it feels more like this world is simply a natural progression of everything I've created since I was old enough to make things up in my head. And especially since everything in the game is so connected to and influenced by all my D&D adventures, it feels more like I've just been playing a really big, digital campaign that everyone gets to be part of rather than just my usual players/mates. But it's really nice to take a break after such an intense session, hah!
This is from the review of Esoteric Ebb.
"Have the players in your past campaigns recognised themselves in characters or situations? And is there a quest or character in the game that was literally conceived around a table with dice and snacks?"
No quests are directly linked to the campaigns; it's mostly just characters and references that are relevant in that way. But I made sure to send the dialogue for Ôst, Kraaid, The Duck, and Razz to my players, so they could double-check the voices and tone. Their secret boss fight was very popular, I can tell you. Plus, the lads are absolutely chuffed that people liked their brilliant Slogdog joke.
"You've mentioned before that work on Esoteric Ebb began before Disco Elysium was released. Does it feel liberating or frustrating that so many people still describe the game using that particular comparison?"
That particular comparison is definitely intentional! It was my strategy from the outset to create a game that would be compared to DE, but which differs in tone and content. I knew that if I used the Chimes system, along with this vertical dialogue format, and followed the same non-linear design philosophy - that would be enough for people to hold them up side by side. At the same time, I also knew I'd never be able to reach the same level of literary depth and Eastern European wisdom. So I didn't even try. Ebb is a fun D&D session with me, and nothing else. I make that as clear as I can right from the start of the game - which I think means that the comparison with DE ends up being a positive thing. And I see it as a huge compliment that some people even compare the writing! Although my style is much simpler, I probably got better and better at prose during production. There are some bits towards the end of the game that I'm really proud of!
"Do you think people sometimes underestimate just how difficult it actually is to write this kind of game?"
People underestimate just how difficult it is to make games in general, and interactive writing is certainly part of that phenomenon. But as someone who likes to use figures in my arguments, I usually point to Steam's own statistics: the two genres on the platform that sell best (on average) are - if I'm not completely off the mark - role-playing games and strategy games. Why? My theory is that it's simply because, on average, they are the hardest games to produce. And RPGs with interactive narratives are, in a way, a niche within that niche.
I also think the problem is that the know-how simply isn't there. People compare 'game narratives' between The Last of Us and Disco Elysium as if they exist within the same practical art form, and I just don't buy that. Both are wonderful. But I would never assume that the person who wrote the script for one would have the skills to create the script for the other. And in the average discussion about games (among both players and developers), it seems that the distinction simply doesn't exist in the vocabulary. That's my view, at any rate.
One thing I'm trying to do with the little I've learnt during Ebb's development is to spread that knowledge. If indeed there is such a thing. Simply because I'd love to see more games that make use of interactive writing. 'Interactive Writing' is, incidentally, a term I had to sort of make up, precisely for this reason. There's otherwise no real term that describes the practical work where writing and design come together. As far as I know, anyway.
"Otherwise, wouldn't it have been cool to show off the front of the vinyl?"
"And personally, I prefer to look stupid."
"These days, many indie games try to be quirky or clever in their dialogue. What do you think distinguishes well-written game dialogue from text that's just trying to sound clever?"
A lot of it comes down to taste, which is hard to define. Many people think my style is also 'millennial quirky' - and especially with comedy, which is so incredibly subjective that you can barely analyse it. But generally, I try to create characters who could actually exist. That's sort of my fundamental goal - that the dialogue should stem from logical character traits and that these people could have existed in real life.
And personally, I prefer to sound stupid. I went through a phase in my life where I wanted to sound clever. But the more I learn about everything, the more I'm content to accept that I still have a great deal left to learn.
"This is actually one of the many things I researched during my time at university! I'm very intelligent."
"Is that why so much dialogue in games can feel as though the characters are trying to win an argument rather than talking like real people?"
Partly. That's also the reason why we shoot so many people in so many games. Conflict is fun! But I'd also say that game dialogue in particular struggles with subtlety. A good film script should probably have a lot of so-called subtext, where you have to read between the lines to get the point. It would be strange if everyone just said exactly what they were thinking and feeling. But if the player is controlling one of the characters - then the game writer has to make sure the player gets that subtext! And it's incredibly difficult to get the player to keep up and make informed choices. That's why it makes sense (and I do it all the time too) to be much clearer in the writing, and specifically to let the player control characters who are overly 'clear' in how they speak and think.
Here's yet another reason why Disco's skill system is so brilliant. Through internal monologues, it's much easier to let the player get the point without it feeling too stiff. This is actually one of many things I researched during my time at university! I'm very intelligent.
"And then there's a variation on the Norvik image."
"The game strikes a very natural balance between humour and rather dark, existential themes. Do you have a personal limit for when a joke goes too far or when a scene becomes too heavy?"
I genuinely believe you can joke about anything. It's just a question of when and how. Which are two pretty damn important points. In Ebb, I tried to maintain exactly the same tone as I do when I run D&D - that is, darkness exists and the world is realistic. I have zero interest in exploring certain topics, and every interest in exploring certain others. I was definitely nervous when I chose to delve into certain darker themes in the game, but I see it this way: if it's scary to write about it, then it's probably worth exploring. It's just a matter of writing it in a way that's well-researched, deeply developed, and genuine. Sounds easy, doesn't it?
"What was the hardest part of writing Esoteric Ebb? Not the most technically challenging aspect - but purely on an emotional level."
The internal political debates. I saved them until the end - three months before the game was released. Because I knew that a great deal of the protagonist's political development would be based on precisely these, and I also knew that they would be severely limited by my own political and philosophical knowledge. But I drank loads of tea and sat down in early December 2025 and wrote them all, one by one. And it was here that I really had to examine exactly what my own biased thoughts, fundamental ideological pillars, and feelings were regarding topics such as democracy, men and women, migration, and loneliness.
Then I didn't really have time to go through it all, so I just had to put it out there and see what people thought. It was scary. I had no idea whether what I'd written was coherent, well-written, or socially acceptable. It's very interesting to read what people are writing about it online, though.
"You've written a massive amount of dialogue for the game. Was there any character, quest or scene that nearly drove you mad trying to finish?"
All the bloody encounters. That was the only part of the game where I actually enlisted the help of my editor, Phil Jamesson, who had to write drafts for four of the later battles, based on my design. There's just so much unique content that needs to be written for these - imagine, they can be played in so many different orders. There are so many different choices - every round must have unique attacks and actions. And every subsequent round is influenced (and often entirely based on) the choice you made previously. And for there to be tactics and strategy and AGENCY in these, everything has to be properly designed as well. I'm very proud of the final boss fight, though. It's really cool.
"Is there any aspect of Esoteric Ebb that you're particularly proud of, but which players might not have noticed yet?"
There are a few mechanical quirks in the design that trick players into thinking they're doing better than they actually are. This leads to more exciting clutch moments' I'm very proud of that, especially since literally zero players have noticed it.
The troll fight was dramatic. This image is also from the review.
"How much of the game's world, characters or atmosphere is drawn from your own experiences, Swedish settings or people you've met throughout your life?"
Pretty much everything. It's fun to see people around the world comparing Norvik to their own experiences, but at its core, it's a very Swedish story. What exactly that means is open to interpretation - just like all the other allegories I play with, I like to let the player decide for themselves.
"You seem very interested in politics, philosophy and social structures. Do you think the gaming medium has got better or worse at writing about such topics over the last ten years?"
I'd say that the gaming medium hasn't developed much over the last ten years. The industry has changed a lot, but the art itself (and how indie creators build) feels the same as when I started the process in 2015. Compared to 1995 to 2005, and 2005 to 2015, it's like night and day. So today I'm mostly interested in developing interactive writing as a format for exploring, as you say, politics, philosophy and social structures. Games are, in my opinion, the hardest medium in which to create narrative. Which is why it has also, historically speaking, been seen as a medium with poorer storytelling. It's bloody hard to create good narratives in games! And when we do succeed? Then it's mostly through linear storytelling. Usually through an emulation of film. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with emulating film. Film is brilliant. But I don't want to make films. I don't want to write linear stories. I want to make games.
"You say that the gaming medium hasn't evolved much over the last ten years - but is there any modern game that actually gave you the feeling that 'okay, something new is happening here'?"
Oh yes, loads! Most of them are games that haven't been released yet, but which will hopefully be released in a few years' time. Sometimes I get a few private previews, which is fun. But of games that are out there, which have really succeeded with interactive writing...
Pentiment was an instant classic. Incredibly well-designed. Roadwarden had a really interesting structure and a cool world. Citizen Sleeper managed to blend extremely cool systematic storytelling with interactive writing.
And then, Baldur's Gate III managed to hold a narrative together with interactive writing, even though the player character is completely dynamic. Which might not sound like much of a challenge, but I promise you - there's a reason why all the great examples of interactive writing throughout history (from Planescape: Torment to Mass Effect) always have a very restrictive protagonist.
"I just didn't have time to write unique thought bubbles for every single character in the game. Because there are over sixty characters. It's mad."
"And, of course, THE BIKE ARTWORK."
"Were there any ideas or systems you loved but were ultimately forced to cut?"
Teleportation and mind reading! Two spells, Misty Step and Detect Thoughts, both of which are technically implemented in the game. But both are unusable. Misty Step was simply too tricky to implement - I didn't have enough areas where it would be interesting to teleport, and if I'd allowed the player to teleport anywhere on the map, they'd have got stuck. And you can cheat your way through Detect Thoughts if you want - but if you try to read someone's thoughts, the dialogue is just empty. I simply didn't have time to write unique thought dialogues for every single character in the game. Because there are over sixty characters. Crazy.
"Give me $500 million and ten years, and I can sort it out for you! Thanks!"
"If you were given an unlimited budget and a larger team - what would be the first thing you'd want to expand in Esoteric Ebb?"
To be honest, I wouldn't have done anything major. Perhaps you could add a few more visuals, sort out the voice acting, and polish it up a bit more - but I'm happy with Ebb.
But if you gave me endless funds to make another game, I'd definitely start production on a first-person open-world immersive sim set in Norvik. Imagine Ebb's art style, but in first-person, and with all the 5e mechanics adapted for a game that both emulates D&D and acts as an Elder Scrolls Killer. Give me $500 million and ten years and I can sort it out for you! Thanks!
"How much of that are you saying ironically - and how much do you actually mean?"
I never joke. But let's put it this way: I'm pitching it openly simply because it'll probably never happen. But if Ebb had sold fifteen million copies, I'd have started this project straight away. No question about it. Then, of course, I want to keep working on 'smaller' games like Ebb, where I can sit on my own and write and programme the whole thing. But it would also have been fun to start up a bigger project, where I have much less control. And here in Skövde, the university produces a few hundred talented game developers every year - people who I know would have loved to work on a game like that.
But unfortunately, the financial situation is what it is right now. Most game companies are lucky if they can get half a million to a million dollars in funding. So let's just say it's a joke. For now.
"...I just hope that Disco Elysium's legacy leads to more games like that - games that I like.""
More merchandise is on the way - but these dice are too cool not to order. Don't you agree?
"How do you see the future of this type of narrative role-playing game? Is there a risk that the genre will become too defined by a single game and its legacy?"
I think the main risk is that the genre will lure in developers who think they're producing a similar game without focusing on interactive writing. Disco Elysium was a magical evolution of Planescape: Torment - and Esoteric Ebb is perhaps a mix of the two. Now, I'm obviously very biased, but I think these three reach a level of interactive writing that I prefer. There are a few other games that spring to mind, such as Troika's Arcanum and Bloodlines. Deus Ex too. New Vegas? But honestly, it's so rare that I just hope Disco Elysium's legacy leads to more games like that - games that I like.
"What do you think Swedish game developers are generally better at than the rest of the world?"
From what I can see, it's mostly just about trying out crazy things. Especially here in Skövde, we have an incredibly good environment where developers can build companies, get support, and create really cool games. Games that - because we have the opportunity to take such risks - can be a bit crazy. I mean, Ebb might look like a pretty solid idea in hindsight. But trying to make a sequel to DISCO as a solo developer? That's just plain madness, to put it bluntly.
"And finally - what are your plans now? Have you started looking ahead to your next project, or are you still fully focused on Esoteric Ebb?"
A bit of translation. A bit of porting. And then loads of prep for the next game! We've also started selling some merch, and there'll probably be more of that a bit later. Can't say much more at the moment, but I can guarantee I'll be having a right good time in any case.
Update:
Esoteric Ebb was released on PC in early March - and in response to a question about whether the game will be released on more platforms (which was added after the interview had finished), Chris replied as follows:
"I want to release Ebb on every possible platform, but nothing has been decided yet. So we'll see if it's one specific platform first, and more later, or if it's all at once, like in 2027/2028!"