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A well-known figure in the Californian game dev community, here we got to catch up with Andrea Pessino in his original homeland to discuss The Order: 1886 and its changing perception, the evolution of the God of War franchise, the state of VR, the recent closure of Ready at Dawn, and his new game and non-game projects.
"Hi Gamereactor friends, I'm at the 26th Comicon in Napoli and I'm here joined by Andrea.
And I met you many, many years ago when you guys were presenting The Order in Madrid.
And that was, you know, a technical achievement we hadn't seen up until then."
"So, I know it's an old title now. How do you feel looking back at that project and what it was?
Of course, there was some, you know, criticism about its gameplay, but actually, technically and artistically, it went some way.
So, what can you tell me about that, looking back at that project?
Well, it's been interesting in the past 11 years now, which since we met actually is kind of crazy, that a lot of things have changed, you know, even in the reception of the game."
"It was definitely a controversial title when it came out, I think.
And the criticism was also kind of a product of its time in many ways.
There were certainly, I'm the first one to admit, there were aspects of the game that deserved the criticism.
It was a bit of a struggle, a lot of the development."
"We prioritized certain things and the audiovisual part clearly was the target.
We built the technology completely from scratch for this title and it was a huge endeavor.
And I think that, you know, sometimes when you go a little too far in terms of the way you plan and you prioritize games that are very much, you know, we were very much at the crossing point of a generation."
"The PlayStation 4 represented a real opportunity to explore new technical limits.
It was the last, I believe it was the last real generational leap that could happen in the world of video games.
These days it's much more, you know, proportional.
I don't expect to see really big jumps anymore, because the hardware has really unified a lot, has become a lot more homogeneous."
"So it's been really interesting to see how there's been a bit of a cult following that has built around this game.
I think a lot of people appreciated some of the things that we tried to do, and particularly our artists and designers tried to do that were very unique and continue to be very unique.
I think these days games are starting to look a little bit too similar."
"And I miss a little bit the time where you could take those risks and try to explore different, particularly in our case it was particularly an artistic and audiovisual experiment.
But it's encouraging to see that the general attitude towards it has changed somewhat from the controversial release time.
And I think there is a more healthy discussion about the merits and the non-merits of this game."
"Yeah, with the perspective, right?
You also worked with God of War, with a specific entry.
And you know that series has evolved a lot, and we've seen a reboot by Sony Santa Monica, two entries, we are expecting a new game with the main character Faye."
"So, what's your opinion on how it steered towards something different and more modern, perhaps more predictable, I don't know.
What's your opinion about the new take on God of War?
I loved it. God of War 2018 was one of my favorite games of all time.
It was really brilliant, especially because there's a lot of overlap."
"We worked on two God of War games on the PSP.
And they were very much part of the previous generation.
It was the action-adventure style that started with the original God of War.
The 2018 reboot and rethinking of it was very daring."
"It was certainly a huge risk.
One thing I know is that since a lot of the same people were involved from the originals, with our games, and the same people that also worked on that, it was a very difficult development.
A lot of games tend to be that way, so they really struggled to find a unique voice."
"And I thought that was bold, and it was probably needed.
Everything has its cycle, everything has its lifespan, and the original idea, the original expression of God of War probably had reached that point.
After over a decade of titles, it was time to try something different, something new."
"And they certainly did it, and I think they're going to continue to take that series in new directions.
They're going to be spectacular, I'm sure.
Last year at Ready at Dawn, you guys worked with VR, which is something I like personally.
I love VR, but it's always like we're waiting for a comeback."
"It's never happening, it's always a niche, it needs a breakthrough as well.
What's your take on VR, having worked with it?
Is this comeback going to happen, this breakthrough?
Honestly, I was surprised. I was surprised that I thought this was going to be it."
"My expectation was that there was this natural evolution.
Because I've always seen VR as a separate medium.
I've never thought of it, and most people that I knew that have worked in VR, that's how they saw it.
It was never a replacement for flat screen gaming, it was always an extension, an alternative."
"And I still think of it that way.
My expectation was that that market would continue to grow at a reasonable pace, not the hype pace that always happens.
And those working in that space tended to have the same ideas, it was realistic."
"When we used to work with Meta and Oculus, internally expectations were real, were meaningful.
The expected returns, it was an investment, and it was a long-term investment.
You cannot force things to happen, you have to ride the wave.
But I thought it was this inevitable new direction, where technology kept getting better, Vizor would get smaller and lighter, and more performant, and more affordable."
"Instead, it kind of hit the brakes again.
That was really surprising to me.
I think a big mistake that was made was abandoning PC VR.
I think that really was not a good decision."
"I was not a fan of that idea.
I think there has to be an aspirational level when it comes to this stuff.
I thought the MetaQuest is a brilliant device, it can do an incredible amount, but the games, they are by the very technical limits of what you can put in your face."
"Just never look to gamers that don't actually play them.
They don't look exciting, they look old.
They look like mobile games from five years ago.
And that's not necessarily a problem when you play them."
"Some of these games are incredible.
And they represent the best you can do now to offer something that has a chance in the market, meaning that it's affordable enough and convenient enough.
So there is a lot of value there."
"But the problem is that marketing these becomes nearly impossible because they don't look like console games.
And that's why on PC VR, on the other hand, you had these games that looked incredible, represented really the state of the art, but they could only be afforded and played by very few."
"So you have to have that aspirational place.
There has to be something that shows you where we're going while this is what you can play now.
And once you remove that where we're going, people lose faith in the medium.
So I'm surprised."
"I still think that there will be an adjustment, that there will be a transformation as to what the technology that we use for VR is going to be, but it's going to take a lot longer than I would have expected before.
So it's sad."
"And right now the shift has changed drastically.
I think the market has pretty much dried up.
So it's surprising and a little sad, but I don't think it's dead yet.
So I am certain that some form of it will come back eventually because it is and can be an incredibly exciting and really meaningful alternative to other types of gaming."
"Not a replacement, but as an alternative it can offer a lot of things that are completely unique and new.
So we just need more of it.
And it can be played wireless, which wasn't possible a few years ago.
You can play PC VR wireless now and many people don't even know that."
"I mentioned the final years of Ready At Dawn.
I think it's been 20 months since its closure.
It didn't count?
More or less."
"Can you tell me from your point of view how you lived that?
Looking back at it, it's been some time.
How do you feel about the whole thing?
Well, of course, it was our life and everything for 21 years."
"It was definitely hard, difficult.
People always use these words like family when describing their workplace, but in the case of this studio and other studios that I've known, suddenly this was our experience."
"It was really true.
It was very much some of my best friends, people that I've spent decades working with.
It's not easy to split up and to put an end.
At the same time, we survived 21 years."
"We made a whole bunch of games, some very successful, some a little less.
But it was an amazing ride.
All of our people were so talented and so precious to the industry that they all landed in very meaningful positions and very relevant roles in other places."
"It's sad, but don't be sad because it's over.
Be happy because it happened.
We did what we needed to do.
Eventually, we found ourselves in a position where it made no sense anymore for the entity that we were part of to continue."
"This is what happened.
Now, a new door opens.
We will never forget those years, but now we're working and preparing for the future and trying to show that we still have things to say."
"What do you have to say?
What do you have to do?
I saw you yesterday at the States with Troy and Austin.
I didn't know you were close friends."
"I don't know if you're planning something together.
What can you tell me we can expect from you in the near future?
I was asking you about technical things, but you kind of answered that already with the other questions."
"What can you tell me we can expect from you guys?
For me personally, I've started a new company.
It's called Sales Within.
It's very, very small, very experimental."
"I'm just trying things.
I'm working on two different projects, which are interesting.
They have potential, but that's what it is.
I'm just experimenting and keeping it as small as I possibly can for as long as I possibly can."
"There is no publisher.
I'm funding the whole thing myself.
I'm just trying to find something really new to say.
Flat screen, right?
Yeah, it's flat screen."
"No VR right now.
It's flat screen.
It's very traditional stuff in a way.
It's much more indie than the things that are done."
"Even if I were to scale up again, I don't think I would go beyond 15 people or something like that.
15 to 30 people for me is the sweet spot.
That's when you have the most fun."
"You still feel like you really matter.
Everything you do has such a direct and powerful impact on the title you're working on.
Once it gets past that point, there's too much management, too much production, too many layers."
"If we get to that point, that would be great.
That's what I'm working on.
I'm also working on many other projects, including with Austin and Troy, particularly with Austin."
"We're working on all kinds of things together.
Some projects, I'm also very involved with music things, both in the operatic and symphonic side and with other things that we're working together with."
"We'll continue to explore both things.
I like to see whatever time I have left in this industry, on this earth, I like to spend doing things that I'm really, really passionate about."
"Once it comes up, it gets to a place where I feel it's worth sharing, that I will share it, but not anytime soon.
Looking forward to that."
"Are you guys based in Italy for this new studio project?
No, I live in Southern California.
I've been there for 36 years.
You're based in California?
Yeah, I'm in L.A., so we're all there."
"Thank you so much for your time, Andrea.
Enjoy the show. Grazie mille.
Grazie mille. Ciao a tutti."
