Dansk
Svenska
Norsk
Suomi
Deutsch
Italiano
Español
Português
Français
Nederlands
中文
Indonesia
Polski
日本語
한국어
Čeština
Ελληνικά
Türkçe
Tiếng Việt
عربي
Follow us
HQ
Videos
Taking the Llama Lane to business success - Lars Håhus DevGAMM Interview
In Gdansk, after his in-depth talk describing his experience with several game studios, we talk with Llama Lane's CEO about creating video game studios nowadays, the different biz lessons learnt, and how to connect with partners, employees, and players.
Audio transcription
"We're in Gdansk for the DevGAMM day 2 and I'm here joined by Lars who yesterday had a very interesting, very insightful panel which was about creating a studio or your experiences like, you know, managing and founding several studios throughout your career. So, yeah, how do you see the landscape nowadays for people who might be considering creating a studio now that the industry is sort of being disrupted?
Yeah, I think, I mean, there's never a better time to start the studio than today."
"Okay.
Because you're always going to regret that you didn't do it, I think, if that's what you want to do. Obviously, when it comes to funding, it's a bit different than what it was previously. It's changed a bit, but there's still money out there and the advice I always give to founders is really bootstrap as far as possible, which basically means if you can create your game using your own funding, your own savings, and then take it as far as possible to both the prototype, vertical slice, and beyond, the better it is for you. So, I mean, there's always going to be various types of investors that are going to be interested later on and so on, but you need to have a playable prototype. You have to have a playable game for anybody to even start considering whether or not to invest in you."
"And the longer you can do this on your own budget, the longer you can bootstrap, the better it's going to be for your company and for your business plan in the long term because you get to keep more of the earnings as well.
And I think at the end of the day, it's all about validating that your game actually has a potential and a chance on the market. So, the more you do that on your own and then validate by looking at what the players feel and what the investors think about it, then you can actually know if you have the success in your hands or not."
"With all your experience, and we shared yesterday, of course, some of our viewers might know you already, especially in Sweden, from your experience with Paradox and other studios.
Where would you go next, you yourself as Lama Lane?
What can you share about what you guys are doing now?
So, what I do, I have three things that I'm doing really."
"One is advising investors.
Yes.
And that's basically looking at teams that are either looking for funding or that are starting something up and making the right type of introductions."
"So, supporting investors with finding teams that are really set up for success and that have something really good cooking.
The other thing is advising studios.
So, management teams, founders, board level type of stuff."
"Talking about being able to sustainably create a business over time.
Because making games is so hard that even if you have released one game and revenue starts coming in, you need to be able to do that again.
So, that's where I come in and support the leadership and being able to figure that out long term."
"And you mentioned profitability as one key part.
But before we talk that, you also mentioned mindset.
And I think that's very interesting that one of the fuck-ups that you shared is that the second studio you started or the first one, the founders didn't share the same mindset."
"But I have a question here.
How do you predict where their mindset is going to be in two years, five years time?
Because you have this enthusiasm and, of course, you all want this to work out.
But then how do you sort of foresee that?
Because that can change."
"Yeah. So, this is why when you start meeting people in school and you start building these relationships, this is a really good time to actually build that trust between you.
You get to work with people."
"You have time to get to know people very deeply.
And you spend a lot of time together.
So, you know what they're good at and what they're bad at and how you fight and how you struggle."
"And you kind of come out of that in a more positive way.
You get to know people.
But I think in the long term, if you're just starting out and looking for new founders and so on, it's going to be more about just building a thing together."
"And then from there, actually understanding if this is the right person for you.
So, there's no real shortcuts, I think, to get there.
But it's all about just spending time and getting to know each other, building the trust and building the bonds together."
"And then have some failures and then see how that affects you as a team.
And then move away further from there and take it to another direction and be in that journey together.
And that's why it's so hard, I think, as well to be able to find."
"I see a lot of people that are shopping around for founders.
They're speed dating.
They go into a conference like this.
Oh, you also want to start a studio and so on."
"That could work, absolutely.
But the base level trust about why you're doing it, what type of games you want to make, how you want to work, how long, what type of time perspective do you have in terms of when do you want this game to come out and how much money do you have to be able to invest in that?
And what is your kill criteria?
When do you think that we're going in the wrong direction and what does that mean for you to actually get out of this initiative or this founder team?
So I think really talking about all of those really critical and sensitive topics can be super hard because you need to be super personal and you need to really understand each other and have a really open communication channel."
"So yeah, spending time creating games together and just exploring and then be open to that.
Personally, I also think that working together, being close in vicinity is important, but that's not true for everybody."
"So it kind of depends on what type of team you're trying to make and what type of game you want to make.
A lot of instinct going on there.
Yeah."
"You mentioned wrong directions moving forward.
So another fuck-up that I like that you shared is, of course, wrong product.
So you guys, for a while, were doing casino games and it wasn't your thing."
"So again, it doesn't have to be like star contrast like that, like coming from traditional regular video games into casino games, but it can also happen with genres, for example.
So how would you say, you know, people trying to do this should try and approach the product itself?
Because perhaps there's something interesting to explore that can work out in the long run."
"So how do you sort of analyze the product to see if it fits you?
Is it just the things you love?
Is it just the things you understand?
A mix of both?
The gut feeling."
"The gut feeling?
Yeah, your heart.
So your heart wasn't there, right?
No, not in those games, absolutely.
And maybe sometimes you can explore."
"Maybe you can find something where you realize that your heart is there.
But at the end of the day, and this is one of the things that you also mentioned that I really stress in my talk, is basically to understand games is such a complex product to make."
"And it's like everything from the tech needs to be there, the player fantasy needs to be something that is really appealing, the business model needs to work.
It takes about three years to make that game."
"So where's the market in three years?
You have no idea.
It needs to be social.
It needs to be like the zeitgeist.
It needs to mesh with what people are expecting right now."
"And there's timing, a little bit of luck as well.
It's art, it's entertainment, it's craft.
It's harder than rocket science, really.
So being able to understand what quality looks like is the key thing."
"I think if you make a game that's a really good game that has quality, and we can talk forever about how do you define quality, but you have to understand what the players want.
And for you to understand that, you need to love the game that you're working on yourself, and you need to listen to your heart, and you need to understand what good looks like."
"And that's why I talk about that as a fuck-up, because if you work with a game that you don't play yourself or don't understand why people would want to pay for it and play it, then it's very likely that it's going to be hard for you to create quality that people are going to see as valuable as players."
"So that's why I think, I mean, of course you can have a job and only do one certain thing on a game and still do a great game and then leave that to others if you're big teams.
But I think the best games are made by people who truly and deeply care for the product and really understand why it needs to exist and what it adds to the market and to the ecosystem of games, really."
"Yeah, interesting.
And another thing I found interesting is that you mentioned sort of the balance between motivation and profitability.
So if I got this right, because you were really fast, you said something like profitability sounds boring, and this is something that sometimes is obscure to members of the team and only reserved for higher-ups in the studio."
"But actually, you found it useful to sort of have that info permeate towards everybody.
So as long as they understand what is profitable for the studio, for the project, they will be involved in a different way.
And actually, motivation can go up."
"Did I get that right?
Yeah, absolutely. That's the gist of it.
I suppose when people decide to become game developers, I think very few are going to have this business mindset and like, hey, let's make money or let's go to market and how that works and so on."
"And that's fine.
And there's going to be just as many people and ways to make games as there are people that make games.
So not one way is always correct."
"But something that I've discovered is having at least like if it is a scale, like you have the art on one side and then it's more towards craft and entertainment, and then you have like the business side and the market side.
So you need to always be on this scale, really."
"And you can be more business-oriented if you want to or more art-oriented if you want to, but it's up to you, really.
But what I found when it comes to understanding what the value is you bring to the players, knowing what actually works for them and having that business mindset is super key because the management team are going to be talking about it."
"The board is going to be talking about profitability.
And if the people that are making the games don't have the same discussions and the same understanding, there's going to be a mismatch in what the company values.
So I think for the culture in a company to be somewhat coherent and for people to have the same discussions on the game development floor when they're making the games as in the boardroom, I think that's when you have a really good momentum and a strategy for the company as a whole and you can actually make really good content."
"There will be great games as well.
I think that can apply to any type of company, actually.
It's a very interesting piece of advice.
But maybe I think it's specifically because games tend to be a super passionate industry, which is also super fun because you need that as well."
"Creative industries.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think there's always this balance that you need to keep.
And some people succeed without having any type of business."
"They just come up with a game.
The timing is there.
The quality is there.
The player fantasy is fantastic.
And they just take off."
"That happens as well.
But I think if you want to create a sustainable business over time, you need to balance this and have everybody understand what that means.
And there's a little thing that you mentioned before that, of course, there are many creative industries, but video games are much more complex."
"And that's why it needs to be spread out differently.
Okay, so a final one.
You stressed several times, and I think that was your main bullet point during the panel, that you have to love the game you are making."
"Why would you say this needs to be underlined in front of developers and also perhaps people doing AAA, AA?
Sometimes, I guess, we all take it for granted, right?
That you're going to love what you're doing, but sometimes it doesn't happen."
"So why do you say that is something that has to be conveyed?
Yeah, and we were touching upon it a bit earlier as well.
But, I mean, at the end of the day, I think that's really where, in today's climate, with so many games being released every day, the only thing that can make you stand out and actually make your games into a business that you can actually get money back from and survive so you can make a second game and a third game is quality."
"And it's doing something that sticks out in the market.
And for you to get there, you need to understand it.
And then you need to love it.
I think making pragmatic games can probably work as well."
"Just picking a genre and then trying to copy what other people are doing.
But I don't think it's going to amount to quality the same way as when you deeply care about your game.
And also, I think, having been in the position myself several times where I worked on games that might not have been super close to my heart, I've also seen when I've been hiring people how important it is that the people that I put together in the team understands the game, love the game, and want to make the best game they can."
"Because the second they don't really care about that, then that's going to be really visible and affecting the game quality.
So I think the short answer is quality is everything with this really saturated market."
"And you can't achieve quality if you don't know what good looks like.
And you only know what good looks like if you care.
And know and understand why you play that game yourself.
We could wrap this here, but I wanted to ask you about Sweden and about the Swedish industry and about Paradox."
"Looking back at your experience, how do you feel about the whole thing?
The whole ecosystem, of course, is full of thriving studios.
It's always been, but more than ever, we could say.
So how do you feel about the Swedish industry?
And about looking back at Paradox and the position they are in now?
Yeah, super broad question, but I suppose..."
"Sorry about that. As a closing one, half an hour.
Yeah, no worries, man.
No, but I think I'm very proud to be part of the Swedish ecosystem and the Swedish game dev scene."
"We have stood out for quite a few years.
We have a really dense...
The talent density in Sweden is really...
There's so many talented developers."
"And from Malmö to the top north, there's so many people that make awesome games.
I think what we've seen in Sweden that's benefited us has been that people that have been successful in making games that have made money and they've actually gotten some money out of that and become relatively wealthy, that they're investing back into the industry because they want to."
"Because they care about the industry.
Again, loving games and so on, but they care about the ecosystem.
They care about the Swedish game climate.
And then we see that more studios are founded."
"More games are being made.
The seniority of the people is basically rising.
We have more and more really talented developers.
And that really creates this engine of a lot of really great games being produced in Sweden."
"And I think this is one of the things that make us stand out because there's no public funding at all for games in Sweden.
Like there is in Norway.
I think most of the European countries actually have some form of public funding."
"And that's great.
I would want that to happen in Sweden as well because it enables people to have a lot more, I guess, mind space when they're creating games."
"And it allows for a lot more artistic type of titles to come out.
But at the end of the day, what we've seen in Sweden is this sink or swim thing.
You have to have a commercial mindset when you create your games so that you can get to a point where you're actually creating revenue and then can give back to the community."
"So I think that's really important.
And we're seeing the same thing happen in Denmark now too with a few companies that are starting to really nurture the local games industry and so on there."
"And I think that's really admirable.
I think that people have that mindset.
It's the long-term mindset.
It's not only about the next week or the next game."
"It's about what companies can you create through your own success and what happens when a senior from your team goes on to start a new studio.
It's not always bad."
"Maybe it's bad for you in the next six months or so to find a replacement.
But for the larger ecosystem, it's really positive.
And that creates this thriving industry that we've seen in Sweden."
"So I think that's really cool.
I don't know if that answers your question.
Yeah, perfectly fine.
I think that's actually a very useful piece of advice for many different countries and their industries to actually think out of the box and think that there's not the same origin for it all, right?
Yeah, yeah."
"And I think also for people that actually release successful games, to actually support the industry that helped you become successful and give back.
It makes sense."
"Invest in studios that you believe in.
Help them, advise them to get to the next spot and be able to create the next success.
I think that's super key because at the end of the day, that's why we started making games in the first place and giving back."
"And then when it comes to Paradox, it's really interesting to see how they've grown.
From when I started, it was like, I think we were 60 people or something like that, to 600-something that it is now."
"And keep just delivering and finding their niche.
And I think that's super cool to see.
And I'm really happy to see that they keep focusing on that.
And like I said on the talk as well, really finding what you're really great at doing and then keep doing that and iterating on that."
"And that's where the true quality comes out of that as well.
The 80-20, you said?
Yeah, the Pareto principle, exactly.
I think that's interesting as well."
"Knowing what to innovate.
And don't reinvent the wheel for everything all the time.
Some companies might be able to do that as well, but I think, again, with sustainable business and so on, you need to be able to understand what you do well to be able to repeat it, especially games being so complex to make."
"The more you can actually lean into your skills and your strengths, the better.
And it's also your trademark and your community of followers.
Yeah, exactly."
"What they expect from you.
Yeah, absolutely.
If you want a specific thing, if you've done that over the years, absolutely."
"Exactly.
Well, thank you so much for your time, Lars.
I'm looking forward to meeting you again and learning about the studio business."
"All right.
And enjoy the rest of the show.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much."
Interviews
More
Videos
More
Movie Trailers
More
Trailers
![Blades of Fire - Gameplay Showcase 4 [ESRB M]](/media/grtv/07/730763_w412.jpg)
More
Events
More