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Bringing the Sounds of Tsushima to Life - Ghost of Tsushima Interview with Composer Ilan Eshkeri
We spoke with the man behind the amazing soundtrack of Sucker Punch's popular action game, to learn all about the trials and tribulations that went into creating an authentic soundtrack for a game set in 13th century Japan. All before discussing the upcoming PlayStation The Concert and why it will be a must-attend show.
Audio transcription
"Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another Gamereactor interview.
Today, I'm here with composer extraordinaire, Ilan Eshkeri, known for work on Ghost of Tsushima, The Sims 4, Superman, The Christopher Reeve Story, Layer Cake, SAS Rogue Heroes, a whole bunch of things that you're probably somewhat familiar with."
"And the reason why I'm talking with Ilan today is because very, very soon PlayStation The Concert will begin its global run.
And obviously Ghost of Tsushima is going to be featured very prominently in that show.
So let's let's start with Ghost of Tsushima, Ilan, and then we'll get to the other stuff in a moment."
"What you know, how did that come about?
How did you come to join the Ghost of Tsushima project?
Now, what stood out and made you want to be a part of Sucker Punch's video game?
Well, it was."
"It was a little bit of a process because PlayStation came to me and asked me if I'd like to do it.
And I had a look at it.
And my first reaction to it was, no, I'm not sure that this is for me because I was not sure."
"In my mind, I just thought, I don't know what I have to say about a sort of first person slicing people up samurai game.
It's not really not really my bag.
I've done you know, I made a film not so many years ago called 47 Ronin that sort of used Japanese fantasy adventure."
"I'd worked a little bit in that world.
But what intrigued me is they were interested in in a score that I had written for Ralph Fiennes when he directed a Shakespeare called Coriolanus."
"And Ralph and I had spent a long time crafting the score.
And it's a very unusual sounding bit of work.
And they were interested in that.
And I thought, OK, well, that's interesting that, you know, you like this little indie score that I made with Ralph for your big AAA game."
"And so we talked a bit more and they took me out to meet the the folks at Sucker Punch.
And and we sat in one of their boardrooms and they presented the game to me."
"And at that point, there was some clunky bits of gameplay.
There were storyboards.
There were bits of animation.
And there was just bits of script that they just read to me."
"And it took a while, but they took me through the whole game.
And by the end of that, I was I was in I was all in because because the game is, of course, there's a whole lot of fighting in it.
But that is not the core of the game."
"What really intrigued me was that there is at the core of the game.
There's a character who is he wants to respect the tradition of of the past.
But in order to save his world and the people he cares about, he has to break all those rules."
"And so he's in he's in a state of constant contradiction.
And and and that's very emotionally intense and a very interesting place from which to experience all all other emotions."
"And so I thought, yeah, I got something I can do with that.
That that's, you know, and then, you know, the Sucker Punch guys are just creative geniuses, lovely people.
And I wanted to work with them."
"And the PlayStation music team, the Sony music team, they're just brilliant guys.
And I really wanted to work with them.
And that's really important for me to know that I'm going to have a good collaborative relationship with with with the creative my, you know, my fellow creative people."
"And when you when you go about creating a score and a soundtrack for a game like Ghost of Tsushima, you know, set in, I think, 13th century Japan.
What kind of research and preparation does do you go through for that?
You know, what does it involve?
Well, I mean, that was hugely challenging."
"And also one of the things that also drew me to the project, Sucker Punch, the Sucker Punch team were obsessed with authenticity and detail, like to the extent that they they went to Tsushima and collected leaves so that they could accurately animate the leaves on the trees."
"So the attention to detail and the the respect with which they approached the the creation of the game was just above and beyond anything I'd ever seen before.
And so they set that bar really high for me."
"Right. And and but I love the challenge of that.
So actually, I went I found a professor based in London who was an expert in Japanese music.
And I spent a long time learning from him, reading books."
"I got a lot of the the soloists, Shakuhachi, Koto, other instruments, the the the biwa, which was actually an instrument that that samurai would have played at the time."
"And there's a tradition that was almost entirely lost.
But I found this player, a Japanese lady who lives in Spain.
I had to fly her over.
And I just spent time with these musicians, not just recording them, but learning how to write for those instruments."
"So it was really quite a process.
And but but I loved it.
And I hope that that comes across in the score, that there's a real authenticity to it."
"And of course, you know, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.
I'm like a guy in Europe, like trying to understand ancient Japanese music.
Like, what the hell do I know?
But but, you know, I hope I I captured something of it."
"Yeah, I can imagine the challenges are much more significant than you can originally think of.
What you'd mentioned there about one of the the unusual sort of instruments that's involved with creating an authentic, you know, mid 13th century Japanese soundtrack."
"What was that like?
You know, was there any other sort of additional quirky and unusual musical instruments that you had to figure out how to weave into your into your score and into your compositions?
Yeah, I mean, there's there's a variety of different types of flute."
"Taiko drums, which I spent a long time trying learning really how to how to write for them authentically.
And and that was great.
And then and then there was there was one piece where I wanted as a couple of pieces where I wanted chanting."
"And so I found out that the way that they learn to play is they have these different sounds for these different rhythms or different drums.
And and they shout them out."
"Or you can ask them to shout them out.
So I very diligently learned them.
And then I put them, you know, to one of the tracks."
"And I and then I got them to chant it.
And we went to Japan, Tokyo to record this.
And and I had like whatever, 20 whatever of these big guys.
Like they started they started doing it and they got halfway through and they all started falling about laughing."
"And I was like, what kind of?
And apparently I'd put a series of these sounds in a row in a way that you wouldn't normally do it.
And that sounded like a really rude word in Japanese."
"They were like, we're going to have to rewrite this.
So, you know, you think you know something.
But yeah, anyway.
And what was it like working with with Sucker Punch then when you were in the process of creating the score?
Were they very hands on or they just let you sort of get on with it and do it your own way?
Both Sucker Punch and the Sony music team were were deeply involved in the music."
"And of course, there's always an approval process, but it was very collaborative.
And that's really in the end, that's what I'm always looking for.
That's what matters to me is we all have the same goal."
"What we're trying to do is make the best video game possible.
My job is emotional narrative, is to take the audience on the appropriate emotional journey.
It's absolutely key that that has to work for the game to be successful."
"And and so we work on that together.
You know, they give me notes.
I have notes. We develop that world as a team.
I think sometimes people think that that, you know, composes that maybe I'll just go away and write some music and then people say, no, not that, that or do that or somehow that, you know, like it's, you know, trying to sort of blindfolded pin the tail on the donkey."
"But absolutely, for me, at least, that's not how I do it.
I'm all about narrative.
I studied literature at university, not music.
All about narrative storytelling."
"How can I help shape the narrative?
What is it that we're trying to get to put the audience through?
And I believe that my input helps to shape some of the things that the other creative departments are doing and what they're doing helps to shape what I'm doing."
"And we collaborate. It's a team effort.
Now, obviously, you've worked on a on a broad array of different entertainment products, video games, movies, TV.
What is it? You know, what's the how different is it working on a video game to working on, again, like a movie or a TV series?
That's a great question."
"There is there is one element that is the same and there's another element that's very different. The.
The pure creativity, the fundamental, which is the most important, but the fundamental creative process, whether you're doing film, television, video game, a ballet, an opera, like anything that you can imagine, theater, you are telling a story, an emotional story through the use of music that that's the job."
"And so you have to write a melody that is that's going to describe the emotional situation. Right.
And and and that melody is going to be that.
The job of doing that is going to be the same whatever format you're in."
"Then, you know, to take a practical example, if you think about, you know, if you're if you're writing Luke Skywalker's theme, whether Luke Skywalker was where the star was being presented as a stage play or a video game or a film or a TV show, Luke Skywalker's theme is always going to work because it captures the emotional core. Right."
"So that so that job, that bit of the job is the same.
The bit that changes is is the medium, you know, and the medium is interesting because I can't remember who said there's no art without resistance from the medium.
You know that if you have a small canvas, well, you know, that changes this kind of painting you're going to make than if you have a giant canvas."
"And and so that's true. Right.
Budget affects your creativity.
Sometimes limited budget makes you be more creative.
If you're working in a theater, maybe you can only fit a certain amount of musicians in the pit. Right."
"If you're writing a dance, then the dancers can only dance at a certain pace for a certain period of time before they physically can't do it anymore.
So you're limited by that.
There's always a limitation and and also an opportunity to expand."
"And what's really different in video games is that you get to write for this engine and the engine plays back the music depending on what the the player does with the character."
"And so we're still, in my opinion, that these playback engines are still developing, becoming more complex, and we're still learning exactly how to write in the most effective way for them.
And and I think that's a really exciting creative area to be in."
"So let's talk a little bit then about the PlayStation, the concert, which is coming up with Ghost of Tsushima's soundtrack is going to be featured among all the the many that are going to be shown and performed there.
Why is it important that video game soundtracks are, you know, they take to to concert halls around the world and and and lead to shows like PlayStation, the concert?
Why is that important for fans to be able to experience something like that?
I think live music is always important."
"You know, there's there's there's a desire for it because it's a unique experience that only exists in the moment.
It's just it's ephemeral, you know, and and and and it's electric.
The the the interplay between the energy that the musicians are putting out and the energy that is received back from the audience is is something really special."
"That's what makes live music such an incredible experience.
And the and the collaborative, the feeling of all being there together and all being caught up in a in a single emotion collectively is there's something really special as human beings."
"We're really drawn to that.
And I think increasingly there's a lot of love and respect and admiration for the music and video games.
And so there's an audience for that."
"And here we are bringing something, bringing something for people to to enjoy.
I think what Sony have done.
You know, because I'm not really involved in the creation of this.
I mean, you know, for a change, I'm just along for the ride."
"So it's wonderful.
And I'm going to go see in a few weeks time and it will be new for me as it is for everybody else.
But I am privy to a lot of what they've got planned, things that that people don't know."
"And what I can say is I think they are raising the bar.
It is it is really next level stuff.
It is going to be, you know, of course, the performances.
That's going to be really special."
"But what's accompanying the performances is that they're pushing the boundaries of what a live concert can be.
And I think it's going to be a really visceral and incredible experience.
So would you say that if you had to pick one reason to, you know, to give to people to go and see the show, to go and go out of their way, go and visit PlayStation, the concert, would you say it's that elevation of the experience that they're looking to to deliver with this with the show?
Yeah, I think that I think you've got to love the the music that's being performed."
"There's no point in going to a concert that you don't, you know, so people are going to it's a really broad variety of games.
People are going to say, I love the music from that game.
I want to see that live. I want to experience that."
"They're not going to be disappointed by the other things that are there.
And the icing on the cake is that is is this experiential thing that I think is is is boundary pushing.
So as a final question, then, Ilan, obviously Ghost of Tsushima came out a few years ago, but very, very soon there's going to be a new chapter, let's say, in that story with Ghost of Yotai."
"Can we expect to see your name in the credits for Ghost of Yotai?
You know, Ghost of Yotai is really shrouded in a lot of secrecy, as well as well as it should be.
So I'm afraid that I am not allowed to talk about that."
"But what I will say is that I am excited about Ghost of Yotai.
I think it's going to be incredible.
But but yeah, you'll have you'll have to wait for for an announcement from Sony and Sucker Punch to answer that question."
"It was worth a try.
I had to put it out there.
So as a final thing, then one last question.
If you had to pick one memory of working on the Ghost of Tsushima soundtrack, one thing that really, you know, you come away from and you think, I'm really proud that I had the opportunity to do that."
"What was that? What would that one thing be?
It would be, can I can I do two things?
Fire away. Maybe even three.
So many incredible experiences."
"It was truly an incredible project.
I was really, you know, Sucker Punch and Sony put a lot of faith in me and they really let me do some crazy, amazing stuff.
Finding the biwa player who played this traditional samurai instrument, she was one of the most just one of the most incredible musicians I've ever met in my life."
"To be in her presence in the room and to hear her perform was just a really magical experience that I'll never forget.
Being able to record in Abbey Road Studios with a big orchestra of my friends who I've worked with for years."
"I mean, that never stops to be the most incredible experience.
Hearing your music brought to life by the most incredible musicians on the planet in the most incredible studio on the planet.
I'm always humbled and grateful for every time I get that experience."
"Being, you know, going out to Tokyo and recording those taiko drummers.
That was that was a sound that honestly, it shook every bone in my body.
It was I will never forget that experience.
Those guys were absolutely incredible. It was wonderful."
"So a lot of reasons to go back and enjoy Ghost of Tsushima, which is still a fantastic game.
One of the highlights of PlayStation over the last few years.
And as well, make sure to go and check it out in concert at PlayStation The Concert, which is going to be doing its world tour very, very soon."
"It's going to be, I think, coming to mainly Europe to start with, but it will be expanding all the way around the world.
I will be going to one of them myself.
So I'm looking forward to it."
"The same as you, Elon.
But yeah, this has been our wonderful interview about Ghost of Tsushima, PlayStation The Concert and more.
Elon, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you."
"And well, until the next Game Rats interview, I guess.
So thank you for watching.
I'll see you on the next one.
Thank you."
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